In between all the AIG coverage there's been a little bit of newpaper space this week devoted to the netminder for the Newark team (Martin Brodeur) who set some sort of all time NHL wins record on Tuesday. (We were more impressed with Ranger Coach John Tortorella setting the all time win records for an American NHL coach - but that's just us)
I wanted to follow up on Nugman's question: is Brodeur The Best Of All Time?
He's certainly won the most games. But he's had the Devils and their skill and defensive style behind him all these years. It's sort of like pitching for a baseball team that scores a lot of runs and plays great defense.
But in baseball - is the pitcher with the most wins the best pitcher? Not always. I'd look at ERA also.
Now, ERA is not a pure number either - because the quality of the defense factors into it. But a pitcher with a 1.20 ERA is always a good pitcher. And a 6.50 ERA is always a bad pitcher - no matter how many games he's won.
So for Hockey I'd say we look at Save Percentage - not just wins - to help figure out who the best of all time is.
What do you think? Post a comment and let the discussion continue.
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Fatso's numbers have a tremendous amount to do with longevity, and playing for a great, defense first team. If I had to compare it to baseball, it would be like the guy who only made a few, if any, all star teams because he was never THE BEST at his position (the brodeur has won 3, possibly 4 vezina's), but he accumulated better numbers than anyone else because he remained in that tier just below the best, for a very long time. For example, you look at a guy like rafael palmeiro (before he got caught juicing). At his best, was he ever half as good as Frank Thomas or Jeff Bagwell? No, not really close. Or even a guy like Don Mattinly in his prime before his back blew out, palmeiro couldn't hold his jock. But he ended up with more hits than all of them, and more homers than all but Thomas.
ReplyDeleteWith brodeur, he is certainly one of the best ever, but is he even the best goalie I have seen in his generation? (Younger guys today, like a Hank, don't count because they haven't accomplished near enough to even merit debate) But if you had one game to win, would you want a brodeur in his prime, or a mike richter, if you put them on the exact same team? Personally, that's a toss up for me, all bias aside. But what's not a toss up, is Hasek. I absolutely take a in his prime Dominik Hasek over Brodeur, never seen a goalie close to as good as Hasek's prime.
When you talk greatest ever, your Babe Ruth, or your Wayne Gretzky, there is no doubt. 95 out of 100 people should get the same answer, and the other 5 should be too drunk too answer. That's not the case with Brodeur.
To follow up Dave, here are the active leaders in career goalie save percentage
ReplyDeleteRank Player SV%
1. Roberto Luongo .9194
2. HANK .916
3. Jean-Sebastien Giguere .9150
4. Tomas Vokoun .9137
5. Martin Brodeur .9135
6. Miikka Kiprusoff .9134
Just some food for thought
Great stats. And if you take into account the bad defense Lundqvist has had around him at times - you can really make the case he's the best right now.
ReplyDeleteOf course in the 3rd period against the Canadians his save percentage was 60% (3 saves, 2 goals). But he might have done better if someone had explained to Callahan that crashing the net is only a good idea when it's your opponent's net - not your own.
And of course - when you're as chubby as Brodeur - some additional pucks are bound to hit you.
And I agree - Hasek at his best was the best ever. Imagine if he had spent his career on the Devils...
Great stats. And if you take into account the bad defense Lundqvist has had around him at times - you can really make the case he's the best right now.
Of course in the 3rd period against the Canadians his save percentage was 60% (3 saves, 2 goals). But he might have done better if someone had explained to Callahan that crashing the net is only a good idea when it's your opponent's net - not your own.
And of course - when you're as chubby as Brodeur - some additional pucks are bound to hit you.
And I agree - Hasek at his best was the best ever. Imagine if he had spent his career on the Devils...
And here are the all time leaders in Save Percentage - according to Hockey-Reference.com:
ReplyDeleteRank Player SV%
1. Dominik Hasek .9223
2. Roberto Luongo .9188
3. Henrik Lundqvist .9160
4. Tomas Vokoun .9148
5. Jean-Sebastien Giguere .9140
6. Martin Brodeur .9137
7. Miikka Kiprusoff .9128
8. Manny Fernandez .9124
9. Manny Legace .9120
10. Martin Biron .9114
11. Evgeni Nabokov .9108
12. Marty Turco .9107
13. Patrick Roy* .9102
Ryan Miller .9102
And the placement of Hasek at the top and Lundqvist above Brodeur make sense to me.
Better goalies stop a higher percentage of shots. Hasek is the best. And watching him play - watching him consistently changing games - matches what the stats say.
Wins have to do with you own team's scoring as much as goaltending. For example: Is the defenseman with the most wins the best defenseman ever - or does that have nothing to do with it?
What also makes the debate ridiculous is, look at the names on that list, what do they have in common? The ONLY goalie on that list that played any time before 1990 was Roy (pretty sure, 99%. I think Hasek started at the beginning of the 90's in the NHL).
ReplyDeleteAll of the rest have done the majority of their work, or all their work in the post lockout, 1995 and after NHL, where defense came first, and offense a long distant second. Where scoring was way down everywhere in the league. Brodeur was 6th best in THAT generation. Who knows how many guys that came before from the high scoring 70's and 80's could have made this list with different rules, equipment, and team styles.